R/B Tokens

Atub · Joined: 15 Jun 2008 Posts: 8

Tokens is definitely my favorite deck to play in t2 right now, because I despise Faeries and RDW gets tiresome, though both are really good. The decklist I have evolved for it though is a little jumbled, and I could use a little help.

Lands - 24
6 [10E] Mountain
7 [10E] Swamp
2 [10E] Sulfurous Springs
3 [FUT] Graven Cairns
4 [LRW] Auntie's Hovel
1 [TSB] Pendelhaven
1 [TSP] Kher Keep

Creatures - 29
3 [10E] Mogg Fanatic
2 [EVE] Creakwood Liege
2 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
2 [SHM] Murderous Redcap
2 [TSP] Greater Gargadon
4 [TSB] Shadow Guildmage
2 [SHM] Furystoke Giant
4 [LRW] Marsh Flitter
4 [TSP] Mogg War Marshal
4 [10E] Nantuko Husk

Spells - 7
4 [MOR] Bitterblossom
3 [SHM] Torrent of Souls

Sideboard
SB: 2 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
SB: 4 [10E] Dragon's Claw
SB: 4 [EVE] Beckon Apparition
SB: 3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 2 [EVE] Soul Reap

Until TSP rotates out, I can't figure out why so many of these decks are cutting Gargadon altogether for Torrent of Souls. Gargadon is still beast. The Lieges have been playing better than I expected - beyond token generating, this deck plays 16 black creatures + 4 Bitterblossom that benefit from +1/+1. I don't play 4 Magus of the Moon maindeck because there's just too much RDW out there, against which Magus is a really expensive Grizzly Bear. The hardest decision for me was to go down to 3 Mogg Fanatics, but I just couldn't find anything I wanted to cut.

I'll take any kinds of comments/criticisms, let me know how you would shift this list.

bagina · Joined: 16 May 2007 Posts: 105

grave pact might be good

bagina · Joined: 16 May 2007 Posts: 105

also:

-3 torrent of souls
-4 shadow guildmage
+4 gravepact
+ x# loxodon warhammer
+ urborg, tomb

for ur sb:

+extirpate
-soul reap
-beckon apparition
+1 thoughtseize

bagina · Joined: 16 May 2007 Posts: 105

just threw this together, untested.

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
5 [SHM] Swamp (1)
5 [TSP] Swamp (4)
4 [10E] Sulfurous Springs
4 [SHM] Graven Cairns
4 [LOR] Auntie's Hovel
1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 [TSP] Kher Keep

// Creatures
4 [TSP] Mogg War Marshal
4 [10E] Nantuko Husk
3 [SHM] Murderous Redcap
3 [EVE] Creakwood Liege
3 [LOR] Marsh Flitter
2 [SHM] Furystoke Giant
3 [TSP] Greater Gargadon

// Spells
4 [CS] Coldsteel Heart
3 [10E] Loxodon Warhammer
4 [MOR] Bitterblossom
4 [10E] Grave Pact

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
SB: 4 [LOR] Thoughtseize
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [10E] Dragon's Claw

bagina · Joined: 16 May 2007 Posts: 105

i cut one coldsteel to make it only 60 cards. im 4-0 alrdy. most people quit as soon as i drop a grave pact or a lox.

gmoney · Joined: 05 Apr 2007 Posts: 24

Gravepact in SB it's SOOOO hard to fight against if you are making non-token creatures

bagina · Joined: 16 May 2007 Posts: 105

how do u "make" non-token creatures?

[R]Nchamay · Joined: 17 Jul 2008 Posts: 41

I just played my version of that deck, won first 2 rounds then got slaughtered by kithkin

bagina · Joined: 16 May 2007 Posts: 105

i havent played kithkin yet, but as long as u hit a bitterblossom or a mogg war marshall u should be able to stabilize long enough to get a lox or a gravepact into play

[R]Nchamay · Joined: 17 Jul 2008 Posts: 41

for a while, but if they get an ajani out there isnt much to do if u dont get a grave pact

Vedrfolner · Joined: 04 Apr 2006 Posts: 1396

Take out Murderous Redcap for 2 main Grave Pact. I don't see the purpose of running two Magus of the Moon. They should be in your opening hand - if they enter play lategame, they may have little or no impact on the game. So either 0 or 4 main. In your deck, sticking to the strategy is the best choice as I see it. So -2 Magus of the Moon, +2 Siege-Gang Commander. He wins the game alone, especially with 3 Torrent of Souls in the deck. Eventually, you could use more Lieges and/or more Giants.

bagina · Joined: 16 May 2007 Posts: 105

i alrdxy posted the winning deck. try it.

bananaman2 · Joined: 30 Jul 2008 Posts: 14

The R/B token deck in Australian Nats is still a really good basis to go on. 4 Magus of the Moon is absolutely fantastic against most decks in the format. (I've never seen a faerie player cryptic command anything with that in play)

Since you have Eventide to choose from, which Brandon Lau didn't, there's some considerations to be made about what else to include. IMO the g/b liege is nice, but hard to cast if you go the magus route. You shouldn't really die easily to kithkin as you have so many blockers.

Keep trying, cut the less amazing cards and see how you go.

P.S. Torrent really is amazing even in mono red with this deck. I'd look at how good liege/redcap/csheart are for you and make sure you play 4.

Vedrfolner · Joined: 04 Apr 2006 Posts: 1396

thedarkness · Joined: 13 Jul 2006 Posts: 488

God..you people are making my eyes water. Where do I even start.

Alright. Let's start with why they cut Gargadon.

The current lists of this deck are no gargadon pact. It's TOKENS, and it's called Torrent of Souls for a reason. The idea of the deck is to drop as many token generators as possible BEFORE TURN 5, then win on turn 5 with a lethal Furystoke Giant or Torrent of Souls for umpteen and six damage.

Gargadon is good with Grave Pact. Grave Pact is not a part of this deck. Therefore, Gargadon serves no purpose here, except to kill off your tokens? I dunno, I don't see an upside here.

bagina: As decklists go, that "winning decklist" you posted is pretty freaking bad. If it's Grave Pact, it needs token generators and more creatures. It doesn't need:

Creakwood Liege - Seriously, what the hell? Sorry, but a 2/2 for the cost of Grave Pact seems downright awful in here, even if it does pump out a 3/3 a turn. Drop him.

Coldsteel Heart - WHAT IN THE NAME OF GOD ARE YOU SMOKING? You run 24 lands and no card draw. You want to dilute your base of win conditions by adding mana accelerants in a deck that already has 7-8 1-drops, 8-12 2-drops, and 8-12 3-drops, be my guest. But I WILL call you retarded if you claim this is good.

Loxodon Warhammer - Maybe in the sideboard. Maybe. But doubtful.

Card you DO want in Husk Pact:

A play set of either Siege-Gang Commanders or Furystoke Giants, or if your mana base can support it, both cards and 4 of one. I definitely don't advise running 8 5-drops though. That's just just a bad idea.

A play set of Marsh Flitters.

A play set of Mogg Fanatics.

A PLAY SET OF SHADOW GUILDMAGES. THEY -ARE- THE BEST CREATURE IN EITHER FORM OF THE DECK.

Next on the list of issues:

Siege-Gang Commander + Torrent of Souls = NOT A COMBO.

Here's how the stack works.

You cast Torrent of Souls with both black and red mana, targeting yourself and a Siege-Gang in your graveyard. Siege-Gang comes back. His ability to generate tokens goes on the stack. Creatures you control get +2/+0 and gain haste. 3 1/1 tokens without haste come into play.

Why not just bring back a Shriekmaw or Mad Auntie or Redcap or something GOOD for ACTUAL ADVANTAGE?

Also, adding 4 more 1-drops that don't win the game instantly the way Furystoke and Torrent do is a BAD IDEA. You don't want to be dropping more creatures on turn 5; you want to KILL THEM on turn 5.

Grave Pact is not generally useful in Torrent of Souls. There aren't enough sacrifice outlets. However, some lists are hybrid, such as the one from Italian Nationals. I will post that list here, because it's pretty solid as a hybrid. If I can find one, I will also post a list of pure token generating madness. Don't expect that in this post.

Torrent

creature [24]
4 Magus of the Moon
3 Marsh Flitter
3 Mogg Fanatic
4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Nantuko Husk
4 Shadow Guildmage
2 Shriekmaw

sorcery [8]
4 Thoughtseize
4 Torrent of Souls

enchantment [4]
4 Bitterblossom

land [24]
3 Auntie's Hovel
4 Graven Cairns
1 Kher Keep
4 Mountain
1 Pendelhaven
4 Sulfurous Springs
7 Swamp
60 cards

Sideboard:
4 Avalanche Riders
4 Fulminator Mage
2 Sudden Death
2 Terror
3 Grave Pact
15 cards

The list is fairly self explanatory. Note the lack of Siege-Gang Commanders. Five drops should win the game instantly in this deck.

Siege-Gang Commander lets you recover after Firespout, sure. In that sense it's good. But looking at the deck more as aggro-combo and playing fewer reactive cards is advantageous.

I would suggest using the list I posted until you get the feel for the type of deck it is. And for god's sake, keep the Shadow Guildmages in. -_-

Edit for the sake of not double-posting:

If you prefer to go the more direct "Torrent - Win" route...

Lands
3 Auntie's Hovel
4 Graven Cairns
1 Kher Keep
1 Pendelhaven
4 Sulfurous Springs
7 Swamp
4 Mountain

Creatures
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Marsh Flitter
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Shadow Guildmage
2 Shriekmaw
2 Avalanche Riders
2 Furystoke Giant
2 Murderous Redcap

Spells
4 Bitterblossom
4 Torrent of Souls

Sideboard
SB: 4 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Avalanche Riders
SB: 4 Fulminator Mage
SB: 3 Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 Murderous Redcap

That is my take on the deck. The 2 Redcaps in the main could easily be Thoughtseizes or something; I don't like the idea of 8 4-drops. But I ran out of ideas. Maybe maindeck a pair of Mad Aunties over the maindecked Riders, drop the Redcaps from the sideboard and move the Riders back there.

There's room for change, and I'm not gonna pretend I've tested this list yet and pompously go around saying "I've posted the winning decklist." However, this list, however close or far away it is from being optimal, is better than bagina's pile. Count on it.