Written by Kytep on April 11, 2007
The Borg (Type 2)
by KytepThe Type 2 field is as wild as I’ve ever remembered it, which I think is a great thing. There are some very powerful decks in all categories - control (e.g., Dralnu, Pickles, Tron variants, Project X), aggro (e.g., Boros, Gruul, MGA), and combo (e.g., Dragonstorm, TSPS). This time, I’ve tried to make a deck that can handle such a broad field. I believe that Black has the key cards to make such a deck possible.
I named my deck The Borg (my apologies if this name has already been taken) because it lives in the long game – it’s relentless like the Star Trek Borg (“You will be assimilated”). If a game goes long, it’s usually a safe bet that this deck will eventually win. While some matchups are better than others and The Borg has its share of bad matchups (e.g., Tron), it has a chance against everything – it can overwhelm aggro with very powerful creature control and lifegain, it can shut down combo with discard and remove-from-game effects, and wear down control with uncounterable spells and effects.
| The Borg | ||
|---|---|---|
| Main Deck | Sideboard | |
|
4 Extirpate 4 Sudden Death 1 Krosan Grip 2 Gaea’s Blessing 3 Stinkweed Imp 4 Phyrexian Ironfoot 4 Damnation 4 Cruel Edict 4 Tendrils of Corruption |
4 Phyrexian Arena 1 Nightmare Void 1 Persecute 3 Ghost Quarter 1 Urza’s Factory 1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth 4 Overgrown Tomb 15 Snow-Covered Swamp |
3 Bottle Gnomes 4 Stupor 4 Defense Grid 4 Jester’s Scepter |
The Theory
At first I really liked the idea of Extirpate. I saw it as a Cranial Extraction replacement. Later, I soured on it a bit thinking it was just a flash in the pan but of limited real use, but then I came around again when I realized its power, especially against control decks: If I choose, they only get one shot from any given spell, then I get rid of it. For good. And they can’t stop it.
Combining this with the twin facts that control decks today tend to run very few win conditions and those conditions tend to be creatures with four or less toughness (Teferi, Dralnu, Brine Elemental/Shapeshifter, Vampire, etc.), I saw the potential of Extirpate combined with another Split Second and therefore uncounterable spell: Sudden Death. It doesn’t matter how many counters or how much mana the opponent has; I can Sudden Death their Teferi/Brine Elemental/whatever, then Extirpate it away. (Yes, against Pickles, Willbender can cause some problems even for Sudden Death, but there is a lot more creature control in the deck to help with that.)
Being able to essentially neutralize most control decks’ win conditions with only eight slots in the deck meant that I could use the other 28 non-land slots (not to mention the fifteen sideboard slots) for my own win conditions and aggro/combo defenses. Basically, all I have to do is get to the long game, because with Extirpate (and Gaea’s Blessing), this deck can rule the long game.
Black today also happens to be quite blessed in the aggro defense area, especially with the needed boosts from Damnation and Tendrils of Corruption. Sudden Death also helps out in this area, even though it’s usually slightly inferior to Last Gasp against weenies (notable exception: Split Second helps a lot vs. MGA).So, I figured I could rule the long game with my eight control-killers and add plenty of aggro defenses in the Main to get to that long game. I also needed some win conditions of course. Ironfoots fit the dual-role of defense vs. aggro and win condition quite well, but another creature caught my eye: Stinkweed Imp. He’s also essentially uncounterable since he keeps coming back, especially with Gaea’s Blessing to keep me from decking myself (note Imp can also trigger the Blessing in an uncounterable way). And he can rule the board, especially against decks that don’t pack burn. It’s fun to stare down a Teferi with an Imp, knowing that it’s just a matter of time until I draw that Sudden Death…
Strengths
Uncounterable Threats and Answers: I believe this is the real power of the deck, especially against counter-based control. Outside of running their own discard (and perhaps Extirpates), they usually can’t stop you. Even most of the win conditions are essentially uncounterable – Imp comes back, Factory is a land, and Blessing can be triggered via dredge, which can make things very ridiculous with Extirpates # 5 and above. Unless they get a threat online very early and your answers are buried deep, games are usually just a matter of time against control decks.
Lots of Varied Creature Control: Sudden Death can kill most things in the for
mat. Edict and Damnation can hit the Pro: Black (e.g., Akroma), enormous (e.g., Akroma, Force), and untargetables (e.g., Ledgewalker). Damnation is also great against a weenie horde of course. Tendrils doesn’t disappoint as an instant-speed Corrupt for four mana. As if all that wasn’t enough, Imps and Ironfoots make outstanding blockers, and Imps can keep coming back. Counting Imp and Ironfoot, the main deck has 23 creature control cards, all of which can be recursed with Gaea’s Blessing.(Almost) Mono-Color: It’s tough to get color-screwed with this deck, and the lands are cheap for those of you looking to play this in real life. Although there are only four green sources, the three green cards tend to be reserved for the late game anyway, so that usually not a problem. The main downside of course is Persecute (see “Troublesome Cards”, below).
Weaknesses
Mana Intensive: The Borg is…well, let’s just say the mana curve isn’t exactly out of the Sligh school of thought. Most spells cost three or four, and with the exception of Edict (and Defense Grid from the side), even the 1’s and 2’s aren’t much use early. This can spell some trouble against particularly fast aggro or combo decks. Land destruction can also be quite the pain, although Extirpate can help again by getting rid of some of their LD spells. And having a mitt full of high-cc spells isn’t all that fun against a decent-sized Ignite Memories. On the other hand, the deck is laden with creature control so once you hit three mana, the game against aggro starts turning around rather quickly, especially with the later help of Tendrils and Damnation. As for combo, there’s Stupor and Scepter in the sideboard.
Reactive: For the most part, the deck waits for (or forces) the opponent to do something, then gets rid of it if it’s a permanent, then Extirpates it if it doesn’t want that threat coming back. However, this strategy is not so good when the threat in question is devastating the first time they cast it (e.g., Wildfire, Demonfire, Consume Spirit, or even huge hasty creatures like Akroma, Bogardan Hellkite, or Gargardon sometimes). Since the deck also gives the opponent plenty of time to set up, those Demonfires, etc. can be pretty large. This makes the Tron matchup especially difficult.
Little Digging/Drawing: With the notable exception of Arena and the very minor exception of Blessing, there are no cards that allow you to dig deeper into the deck. This means that often, you’ll be drawing one at a time, waiting to hit that Damnation/Extirpate/whatever. This isn’t usually too troublesome in terms of drawing what you need, though; there’s enough creature control to keep aggro pretty well in hand, while control decks usually give you plenty of time to draw what you need. Opposing discard decks can be a real problem if you don’t have an Arena out, but outside of that, the main problem is that there are time limits to matches, and as mentioned previously, this deck lives in the long game. This is partially mitigated by Ironfoots and sometimes even Urza’s Factory to help bring a game to a close more quickly if needed.Troublesome Cards
Demonfire/Consume Spirit: See the Reactive weakness, above. It may only take one to kill you, so by the time this is an Extirpate target, you may already be dead. Nightmare Void (and other discard) can be your friend.
Wildfire: See the Reactive and Mana Intensive weaknesses, above. The deck usually wants a good number of lands, although it’s not absolutely essential to have more than four at a time against most decks. However, when the opponent wipes out your lands and then drops a large clock, that becomes a big problem real fast.
Extirpate: I’ve tasted my own medicine, and it does not taste good. While far from unrecoverable, an opposing Extirpate can hurt. They can hit your own Extirpate, Imp, or Blessings, to name a few of the more painful cards to lose.
Spell Burst: Although it can’t stop Sudden Death, Extirpate, Krosan Grip, Urza’s Factory, or a dredged Blessing, Spell Burst can be a real pain and at the least make games go far too long, seriously jeopardizing finishes within the time limits. Since it doesn’t go to the grave when bought back, it’s hard to Extirpate. The trick is to save up some spells (Nightmare Void is a nice one to use to follow up after a Tendrils, Damnation, or Edict) to try to get them to let one go without buyback, then Extirpate it. Breaking up Urzatron with Ghost Quarter (and perhaps Extirpate) and/or dropping a Defense Grid (or three) can sometimes help this strategy.
Persecute: This one is bad, but perhaps not as bad as it might seem. Getting hit with Persecute when you’re essentially playing mono-color is often trouble, especially when you’re also piloting a control deck that tends to have a lot of cards in hand. However, Arena can help replenish your hand, but perhaps more importantly, if the Persecute-playing deck is playing aggro-control, you likely still have enough creature control in your deck that you can top-deck and recover in time. If they’re playing control, well, if they had anything decent in their graveyard you can respond with Extirpate, or, if you didn’t have Extirpate at the time, just wait – it’ll come. Also, Imps come back if you want, Ironfoots can’t be hit with Persecute, and they’ll pretty much never call Green, so you can Bless your stuff back and draw a card to get started again.
Ignite Memories: The Borg tends to have a lot of cards in hand, and those cards tend to be on the high-cost side, making Ignite Memories (and thus TSPS) especially dangerous. If you survive one, Extirpate it as soon as possible.
Dust Elemental: Another one that is tough to get to the graveyard for an Extirpate, especially if they have multiples and lots of mana to power them. Sudden Death won’t cut it, and you only have 4 Tendrils. Imps can help keep them at bay from attacking (Did you say, “Flying AND Fear?” HA!), but once they get two Elementals online (attack, hit Imp, Flash 2nd Elemental to bounce the blocked one), the game can go downhill quickly. Here again, Nightmare Void can help.
Card Choices (Main Deck)
Extirpate (4): As previously mentioned, this card can wreak havoc on a control deck, especially if it starts hitting their win conditions. It’s also not bad against aggro (“that was your first and only Char, thankyouverymuch”) and combo (“no more Rite of Flame/Seething Song for you”), although Extirpate may sometimes be pulled against aggro post-sideboard. I doubt I need to mention its usefulness against graveyard-based decks, such as Martyr and Dredge.
Sudden Death (4): Teferi, Dralnu, Brine Elemental, Skeletal Vampire, even Stuffy Doll – you all must die. Same with you, Soltari Priest, Knight of the Holy Nimbus, and Burning Tree Shaman (etc.). No Might of Old Krosa or other funny tricks to save you (except Stonewood Invocation, if you waited until their turn and they use their priority to cast it right away). Sudden Death is a great way to set up Extirpate to finish off key win conditions, especially against control decks, who pack few said conditions.
Krosan Grip (1): Some artifacts and/or enchantments just must be dealt with (e.g., Sacred Mesa, The Rack, Phyrexian Totem, even Lotus Bloom), and using an uncounterable way to do so is just too tempting to not use. Sometimes you even need it to destroy your own Arena, especially against very long games against control, and when you’re at 3 life with an Arena out, you don’t want them to be able to counter your Arena removal.Gaea’s Blessing (2): As mentioned above, this deck lives for the long game, and Blessing really shines there. Not only does it allow you to recurse key cards (imagine casting, say, 6 – 8 Extirpates in a game. Or Tendrils), it also acts as a potential additional win condition: deck your opponent. Note that the Dredging cards (Imp and Nightmare Void) can trigger the Blessing effect uncounterably. Void can do this very consistently because you can cast and dredge it every turn (even if they counter it).
Stinkweed Imp (3): Wonderful board controller, especially against slower decks or decks that don’t pack a lot of creature removal. Note that it flies, so it can block Silhana Ledgewalkers (not to mention kills Spectral Force), which is key against MGA. As mentioned above, an Imp can stare down Teferi (or virtually anything else, for that matter) until the Damnation or Sudden Death comes down. The dredge ability is just gravy, allowing one Imp to whittle down your opponent’s offenses, or just keep coming back to beat down against control.
Phyrexian Ironfoot (4): Like many of you, I’ve loved this guy for a long time. Nearly perfect weenie blocker (block-kill-survive is good, I hear), not to mention can be a great beatstick as well.
Damnation (4): This one should be obvious. I really missed Hideous Laughter when it rotated out, but damn (pardon the pun), did Wizards make up for it! Helps enormously vs. weenies, Vampires, Akromas, etc.
Cruel Edict (4): Almost as obvious as Damnation, Edict helps enormously against single larger and/or untargetable threats like Akroma, Dralnu, Teferi, Ledgewalker, Spectral Force, etc., and also helps save a few life points in the early game against weenies. Works great with Damnation (wipe them, then pick them off) and especially with Arena (draw more than they do, so 1-for-1 isn’t bad at all).
Tendrils of Corruption (4): One of the most amazing cards Black has had in quite a while. An instant-speed Corrupt for only 4 mana is amazing, and Urborg makes it even nicer, even though the only non-Swamps in the deck are 3 Ghost Quarters and 1 Urza’s Factory. Tendrils helps immensely against aggro decks, often better than Fetters, and really helps refuel the life to keep an Arena going.
Phyrexian Arena (4): I temporarily took this out for Dimir House Guards, thinking that against Control, I can handle a longer game and against aggro I’d rather transmute for a Damnation or even Tendrils on Turn 3 rather than play a card that will only get me one deeper next turn and cost me a life point doing it. But it was hard to keep up with control over the longer game without Arena. It really makes the difference to get that much deeper, and often helps pull the critical Edicts needed later in the game, not to mention Tendrils and the Swamps to power them.
Nightmare Void (1): You never know when this will come in handy, especially against Spell Burst, Demonfire, and other especially problematic cards. Basically it helps your opponent get those critical threats into their graveyard so you can Extirpate them.
Persecute (1): This used to be a Consume Spirit to help shorten longer games (not to mention save myself against a large creature, or just replenish life that was taken by aggro, burn, and/or Arena). And I may go back to Consume. But for now, Persecute seems to fit well, as a nice surprise, especially against otherwise troublesome decks (e.g., Tron, Dragonstorm).
Ghost Quarter (3): The prevalence of non-basics makes the environment ripe for this. Usually reserved for opposing creature factories, like Urza’s Factory or Vitu-Ghazi, but can also help break up Tron (extra fun with Extirpate :) to help avoid Spell Burst silliness and/or deadly Demonfires.
Urza’s Factory (1): Another uncounterable win condition that can make for a pretty fast clock late in a long game, or a blocker factory. Might as well put one in.
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (1): Maybe I’m too much in the habit of throwing this into my Black decks that run any non-swamps, but Urborg often makes the Tendrils one or two points bigger, as I often have a Ghost Quarter or two out. On the other hand, they can help color your opponent, which can often be bad, or allow your opponent to “Wasteland” your Urborg with theirs (legend rule). I’m not sure whether it should stay in or go just yet.
Overgrown Tomb (4): You need some way to power those Blessings and Grips. I’ve found that just the four Tombs is almost always plenty, since there are only 3 Green cards in the deck and those are usually later-game cards (although Grip can become needed early).
Snow-Covered Swamp (15): Obvious. Snowy because of Ironfoot.
Card Choices (Sideboard)
Bottle Gnomes (3): Even with all of the creature control maindeck, aggro can still sometimes push a close game. Gnomes can usually replace things like Nightmare Void, Persecute,
Extirpate, and perhaps Krosan Grip (except vs. Green w/Blanchwood Armor and Moldervine Cloak) vs. aggro.Stupor (4): Mainly for use vs. Dragonstorm and TSPS, but can also be useful against other control decks, helping get a key card into the grave for Extirpate.
Defense Grid (4): Mainly here against UR Tron, which is probably The Borg’s worst matchup. UR Tron generally likes to play their spells during your turn, so Defense Grid not only helps against their countermagic (especially Spell Burst), but it helps remove the pseudo-haste from Sulfur Elementals, Teferi, or Bogardan Hellkites, which can make a huge difference over the course of a long game, especially when most of your creature control is in the form of sorceries.
Jester’s Scepter (4): My attempt at an answer to the Reactive weakness. Maybe these should be Caps (or even something else) instead, but I don’t like the Cap’s 4 mana cost, especially against the decks I need it against the most: Tron and Dragonstorm. Plus, Scepter puts the offending card(s) back into the grave, where they can become targets for Extirpate.
General Play Tips
1) Don’t worry about how many cards an opposing control deck draws, and don’t waste your Extirpates on their Compulsive Researches, Tidings, etc. Most of what they draw will be counters, which Sudden Death and Extirpate could care less about, or creature control (e.g., Wrath), which is essentially useless against you in the longer game, thanks to Imps and Factory.
2) Do worry about “kill-you-now” cards, like Demonfire or perhaps Hellkite, and consider their mana base when deciding what to do against a deck that you suspect is packing such things.
3) Remember, opposing Wraths are virtually useless against you, and if anything help you keep the board clear.
4) With the notable exception of Spell Burst, most of the time, you won’t want to Extirpate countermagic against a control deck; rather, go after their win conditions or things that can really screw you (e.g., Demonfire, Wildfire, perhaps Persecute).
5) Play fast (if there are time limits), but have patience. As previously mentioned, the longer the game goes, generally speaking, the better it is for The Borg. You’ll eventually draw those key Extirpates and be able to take the game over with Imps, etc.
Matchups
I’ve had excellent results in my playtesting thus far, against a wide variety of decks, some of which just aren’t popular enough to warrant comment here. I haven’t been able to test against all of the major archetypes yet though, so I’ve marked with an asterisk (*) those decks against which I have not yet had the chance to test; note my win percentage estimates and comments on those decks are my speculation; playtesting may show something different. Here are some of the key matchups, in order of most favorable to The Borg to least favorable, in my humble opinion (I’ve also included my estimate of the percentage of match wins I’d expect of The Borg over the long-term against each deck):
Martyr Control (95%)*: Although I haven’t played The Borg against it, I’ve played against Martyr with other decks enough to know that this one’s not even funny. They don’t have nearly enough threats to even put a dent in your creature control, their own creature control is essentially useless against you since your Imps keep coming back (as can Ironfoots, with Blessing), and Extirpate simply laughs at Martyrs and Proclamation of Rebirth. The only danger here is running out of time, but that’s even usually OK; even if you only get one game in, you’ll almost certainly have won it.
Sideboard: -4 Tendrils, -4 Sudden Death, +4 Jester’s Scepter, +4 Stupor
Dralnu (90%): Some of my Dralnu opponents have asked, “What is this? Anti-Dralnu.dec?” Barring terrible luck, Dralnu is almost an auto-win. Extirpate is almost made for stopping Dralnu decks in the first place, and as they only tend to have essentially 3 threats (Teferi, Dralnu, and Skeletal Vampire), it tends to be pretty easy to take care of them with Sudden Death/Extirpate. Imps can help too of course, while waiting for the Deaths to be drawn. Even Edicts and Damnations are often useful. Then the game becomes Imp beatdown.
Sideboard: Nothing. The deck beats Dralnu from the Main and doesn’t really need to sideboard against it. OK, maybe -1 Krosan Grip, +1 Jester’s Scepter for giggles.
Solar Flare (80%)*: I haven’t yet tested against Flare, but the matchup looks good: They’re going for the long game too, and they don’t typically run any “kill you on first cast” cards like Demonfire. In fact, like WUR Control, they only run around a dozen win conditions, which are usually very manageable with your 19 ways to stop them (again, not counting Extirpates). Castigate and especially Persecute could be problematic, so be careful and you’ll probably want to Extirpate them if you get the chance (although Akroma is also a great Extirpate target). Hold your Tendrils for the Totems if you can (Imps or Ironfoot/Death works too), and Edicts for the angels/Doubles.
Sideboard: See Dralnu, above.
Mono-Green Aggro (MGA) (75%): This matchup isn’t too tough unless they get a really good draw. Try to hold your Damnations for Ledgewalkers and/or Spectral Forces. If you have to rely on Edicts to kill these, remember to keep the rest of their board clear. Imps are huge in this matchup; remember that they can block Ledgewalkers (and Spectral Forces, and enchanted Birds/Rangers). Ironfoots are great against elephants, elves and Dryads (speaking of Dryads, take care when considering dropping an Overgrown Tomb. If you can live without it, do so, at least until you kill or Extirpate all the Dryads or have plenty of ways to kill them). Extirpate the Cloaks, then Blanchwood Armors, then Stonewood Invocations, then Spectral Forces (depending on what you can block and what creature removal you have available).
Sideboard: -1 Nightmare Void, +1 Bottle Gnomes
Pickles (75%): A bit more difficult than Dralnu, but still quite favorable. In this one, Teferi doesn’t matter quite as much; it’s Brine Elemental that really must be Deathed/Extirpated. Once he’s gone, everything else is pretty easily controlled by the other Deaths and Imps. And since they tend to lay out several creatures, Damnation can get some good use, not to mention using Tendrils to kill a morph creature in response to a Teferi. Just watch out for Willbender.
Sideboard: See Dralnu, above.
WUR Control (70%)*: I haven’t tested against this yet either, and the land destruction looks a little scary. On the other hand, there are few non-basics for Detritivore to consume, and they only run 12 win conditions and 4 Remands to slow down your 19 ways to stop them (not counting Extirpates). OK, there’s also Urza’s Factory, but that’s what Ghost Quarter is for. I believe this will be a favorable matchup for The Borg; I would just suggest holding back a couple of lands in the mid to late game; you don’t want a Bust followed by a Lightning Angel to ruin your day.
Sideboard: See Dralnu, above.
Project X (60%)*: There are a lot of creatures to worry about, but thankfully Project X is fairly slow compared to most aggro decks, which should give you enough time to set up, especially if you get an early Arena. Extirpate Saffi and remember that Teysa can remove Imps from the game, which will likely be needed against a creature base so large. Hold back a Sudden Death for the Council (exception: don’t let Teysa stay on the board; Death her if needed), and try to use your Ironfoots and Imps to kill as many creatures as possible before resorting to your spells. Remember also the Hierarch’s sac-to-regen ability, so they’re not very good Tendrils targets when your opponent has GW open. Same for Teysa and her fellow White creatures if there are at least three of them out. Speaking of which, Extirpate her too; you don’t need her tokens ruining your day.
Sideboard: -1 Persecute, -1 Nightmare Void, +2 Bottle Gnomes
Gruul Aggro (60%): With the notable exception of Char, they will have to spend two cards to kill one of your Ironfoots, while the Ironfoots can block and kill almost anything Gruul puts forth. Imps can be burned away, but at least they draw burn away from you. Don’t be afraid to drop an Arena; you’ll likely need it to dig for Tendrils (and the Swamps to power them), but don’t get too aggressive with Arenas either (i.e., don’t put more than one out). Also, don’t forget about their haste/pseudo-haste creatures in Solifuge and Sulfur Elemental. Try to use your Tendrils last if you can so they can be larger, but keep track of their mana to make sure they don’t Demonfire you out while you’re waiting for “just one more Swamp.” Overall, the matchup isn’t too bad; you just have to be careful of their burn.
Sideboard: -1 Nightmare Void, -1 Persecute, -1 Krosan Grip, +3 Bottle Gnomes
Boros Deck Wins (60%)*: See Gruul Aggro, above.
Scryb & Force (50%)*: Protect your Arenas and Ironfoots by killing the Trygon Predators, preferably with Imps or Sudden Death (they can use counters such as Snakes or Plaxmantas to stop Tendrils or Edicts, although Damnations still get past the Mantas). Imps look particularly good for this matchup, as they will almost certainly have to lose a creature to kill an Imp, which then can just come back. Just be careful of their counters, but since they have to tap more to play threats, this may not be as much of a problem as it is against other control decks. Extirpate their Snakes and Snags, then Mantas, then Cloaks. If you can cast your spells without interference, you should win.
Sideboard: -1 Krosan Grip, -1 Nightmare Void, -1 Persecute, +3 Defense Grid
Dragonstorm/TSPS (25%): These are tough for The Borg. Tendrils (if you can get one off) can buy you a few turns, and Damnation can clean up goblin tokens or dragons (if you survive the initial hit). Use Extirpates freely on the mana accelerators (Rite, Song, and Bloom) if you get the chance. Otherwise, you ride on discard and Scepter (and Extirpate).
Sideboard: -4 Cruel Edict, -4 Sudden Death, -3 Stinkweed Imp, +3 Bottle Gnomes (to delay D-Storm), +4 Stupor, +4 Jester’s Scepter
UR Tron (20%): Probably the worst matchup for The Borg (and unfortunately, UR Tron is very popular right now). UR Tron typically runs a lot of the Troublesome Cards (see above), such as Wildfire, Demonfire, and Spell Burst. However, it’s not unbeatable, especially post-side. But you’ll have to play fast; you’ll likely need all three games to win the match, and they will almost certainly be very long, especially if you side out some win conditions, as I suggest below. Ideally, you want to Extirpate a Demonfire, Wildfire, or Spell Burst (probably in that order), although those targets won’t usually present themselves early. Instead, in the earlier game, you’ll usually want to Ghost Quarter and Extirpate a Tron land to slow them down.
Sideboard: -4 Damnation, -4 Cruel Edict, -4 Phyrexian Ironfoot, +4 Defense Grid, +4 Jester’s Scepter, +4 Stupor
That’s it. Enjoy The Borg!
-Kytep
Snack on 2007-04-11 15:40 MST This was a very well-written article. Props to Kytep for taking the time out to really examine each card choice. I am skeptical of some of the win percentages by default, but if I was going to look at this type of deck, it'd be a great place to start.
-Snack
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fugii on 2007-04-11 15:41 MST lol?
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krowzy on 2007-04-11 15:54 MST A very well writted article, but it's never safe to assume matchups. Angelfire is bad because they actually have several different threats, like Helix, Angel, Demonfire, Hellkite, and even Numot.
Pickles also seems worse than you made it out to be. Your solution seems to be Sudden Death on their Brine, but that's going to require you to know exactly which faced down creature the Brine is. If its already flipped, as in all matchups, it's already too late, and they still have Shapeshifter that's beating down and has at least one turn left of you being tapped out. Also, a resolved Teferi is much more of a problem then you make it out to be.
Again, great article though. It's sad that Izzetron and Dragonstorm make up more than a third of the online meta though :(
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Spooge on 2007-04-11 15:57 MST WTF is this deck lol pile.dec ftw yea u beat martyr tron and dralnu good job martyr tron died and dralnu is on its death trip
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Shooter on 2007-04-11 16:12 MST very well written article, but I don't trust in this deck. it's so slow, u prob lose to rgs, and tron and ds ae like 40% ofthe meta =[
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Jacois on 2007-04-11 16:46 MST Great article until I read the win percentages. I know I'm a rogue and all, but my RW Martyr deck runs 3 maindeck Muse Vessels. (I placed 3rd in a trial with it.) They would completely own you.
But like I said, great article.
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thedarkness on 2007-04-11 16:54 MST You people who just said "lol?" or referred to the deck as "pile.dec" are total assholes. At least he put some effort into his article, which is more than most writers here do.
Kudos on the article, but not so much on the deck. It doesn't look too strong, and though I didn't read the matchups, it seems to have more weaknesses than the above replies make it seem like you say.
But again, kudos on a well-written and thought out article.
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Revik on 2007-04-11 17:33 MST Very well written, grats.
Also, I'd:
A: Love to see some game examples.
B: Love to see some game examples.
C: Love to see some game examples.
I have tried using Mono Black Control, maybe the green splash helps. I might test around with it.
Another thing. Extirpate is very very bad maindeck. I cant help thinking that its just a waste of space, considering how little it effects the board position. Sideboard it, its where it belongs.
Erm, also a slight correction. Split-second helps versus the Dralnu matchup a lot more than the MGA matchup, although both are valid explanations.
Again, very well written article. You took some time in writing it like I did my first one, and that deserves commendation.
Edit: 8th. (lolwildcard)
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Kytep on 2007-04-11 17:51 MST by krowzy on 2007-04-11 16:54 CDT
A very well writted article, but it's never safe to assume matchups. Angelfire is bad because they actually have several different threats, like Helix, Angel, Demonfire, Hellkite, and even Numot.
Pickles also seems worse than you made it out to be. Your solution seems to be Sudden Death on their Brine, but that's going to require you to know exactly which faced down creature the Brine is. If its already flipped, as in all matchups, it's already too late, and they still have Shapeshifter that's beating down and has at least one turn left of you being tapped out. Also, a resolved Teferi is much more of a problem then you make it out to be.
Again, great article though. It's sad that Izzetron and Dragonstorm make up more than a third of the online meta though :(
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Thanks for the kind words. With regard to Angelfire, the main problems I see are Demonfire and perhaps a flashed Hellkite, both of which may be addressed with Nightmare Void and/or Tendrils (and Stupor/Scepter from the side). I don't see Helix as much of a problem; the only creatures of mine it can kill are Imps (which come back), and if they use it as burn to me, I can recover life pretty quickly with Tendrils. As for the angels, etc., I believe Sudden Death, Edict, Tendrils, Imps, and Damnations should be enough to deal with them. But, as I showed in the article, I haven't had much chance to playtest this matchup, so I can't say for sure.
With regard to Pickles' Brine Elemental, it's not too late once it's flipped; all I need are 1BB open and I can Sudden Death it. Sure, I may miss one untap phase, but that's not a huge deal over the course of a long game. As for Teferi, yeah, he can be a bit of a pain, but not terrible. Once I Death (and then Extirpate) an Elemental, I can focus the remaining 3 Deaths (or Damnations, Tendrils, Imps, perhaps even Edicts, etc.) getting rid of Teferi and crew. I've played this matchup a few times, and while it can make me sweat sometimes, I haven't found it to be too bad overall.
Yeah, I first developed the deck when Dragonstorm and Tron weren't nearly as popular, and now right when I get the article ready, they're back in huge numbers. Go figure. :/
Kytep
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Kytep on 2007-04-11 17:57 MST by Jacois on 2007-04-11 17:46 CDT
Great article until I read the win percentages. I know I'm a rogue and all, but my RW Martyr deck runs 3 maindeck Muse Vessels. (I placed 3rd in a trial with it.) They would completely own you.
But like I said, great article.
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Thanks for the kind words. I admittedly didn't factor in Muse Vessel in my Martyr matchup analysis. However, I still don't see it as much of a problem, since 1) My Arenas keep my hand replenished, and I can just feed you my crappiest cards; 2) As long as I have at least 2 cards in hand, I can hold on to an Extirpate to hit your Martyr; 3) Eventually, I'll Krosan Grip/Extirpate your Vessel (and can recurse the Grip with Blessing. In the meantime, how are you going to beat me? Where will your win conditions be? I can play my creature control, Arenas, and Extirpates as soon as I draw them.
I don't see Muse Vessel as much of a problem at all, at least not in a Martyr deck. Probably not even two going at once.
Kytep
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Kytep on 2007-04-11 18:03 MST by thedarkness on 2007-04-11 17:54 CDT
You people who just said "lol?" or referred to the deck as "pile.dec" are total assholes. At least he put some effort into his article, which is more than most writers here do.
Kudos on the article, but not so much on the deck. It doesn't look too strong, and though I didn't read the matchups, it seems to have more weaknesses than the above replies make it seem like you say.
But again, kudos on a well-written and thought out article.
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Thank you for the kind words. I don't sweat the assholes; they're to be expected. I've noticed that EVERY deck or article posted gets at least a half-dozen "this sucks" replies. It wouldn't matter if the deck was the Second Coming of Trix or 56 forests and 4 Chromatic Stars; there will always be people who say a deck sucks, most without even reading the article, let alone giving it more than 10 seconds of thought, let alone playtesting.
I'd be curious to hear what additional weaknesses you see that have not yet been addressed, though.
Kytep
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Taoofss on 2007-04-11 18:04 MST It looks very good....
for me to poop on!!
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Spyx on 2007-04-11 18:05 MST I don't like gaea's blessing in this deck...
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Revik on 2007-04-11 18:09 MST by Spyx on 2007-04-11 20:05 EDT
I don't like gaea's blessing in this deck...
Agreed. Maybe elaborate on its purpose more? All I'm seeing it as is a way to recur some cards that wont matter if your already winning, or as a "backup" wincon in milling. Seems well...kinda bad...no offense.
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Kytep on 2007-04-11 18:11 MST by Revik on 2007-04-11 18:33 CDT
Very well written, grats.
Also, I'd:
A: Love to see some game examples.
B: Love to see some game examples.
C: Love to see some game examples.
Another thing. Extirpate is very very bad maindeck. I cant help thinking that its just a waste of space, considering how little it effects the board position. Sideboard it, its where it belongs.
Erm, also a slight correction. Split-second helps versus the Dralnu matchup a lot more than the MGA matchup, although both are valid explanations.
Again, very well written article. You took some time in writing it like I did my first one, and that deserves commendation.
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Thank you too for the kind words. This is my third article for M-L (I wrote PozBox for the Rogue Deckbuilding Contest and Sick-o-Tron last year).
As for game examples, what are you looking for? Play-by-plays? Something else? I'm just not clear on what you want.
Actually, I believe Extirpate is great main-deck, at least in this deck. It enormously helps win Game 1 vs. control decks, which is very important in a slow deck like this which will often push the time limits. While Extirpate isn't great against aggro, it isn't all that terrible either, as it can get rid of cards that could make trouble in the longer game (e.g., burn). Because the rest of the deck is virtually devoted to creature control, I believe I can get away with 4 cards (actually, 9, with Nightmare Void, Persecute, Blessing, and Grip) in the main deck that are sub-optimal vs. aggro.
Oh, I agree that split-second helps more against Dralnu than against MGA, but it still helps against MGA so they can't use instants (e.g., Might of Old Krosa) to save the target of a Sudden Death.
Thanks again for the kind words. :)
Kytep
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Kytep on 2007-04-11 18:15 MST by Revik on 2007-04-11 19:09 CDT
by Spyx on 2007-04-11 20:05 EDT
I don't like gaea's blessing in this deck...
Agreed. Maybe elaborate on its purpose more? All I'm seeing it as is a way to recur some cards that wont matter if your already winning, or as a "backup" wincon in milling. Seems well...kinda bad...no offense.
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No offense taken, and sorry for not explaining it better in the original article. Blessing can actually be pretty huge in this deck, not only to keep from decking myself in a longer game (especially if I'm dredging 5 cards a turn for a while with Imps), but it can recycle my important creature control (and Extirpates, etc.). Shuffling back in 3 Damnations or Tendrils for re-use can be great; it improves my chances of drawing my creature control in the mid to late game. They can also get back Ironfoots to help close the games faster.
Try it. I think you'll like it with the Blessings.
Kytep
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Revik on 2007-04-11 18:15 MST No problem. I've been looking it over, and I think the green seems kind of weak in here. Like, overall. Also, maybe add some hypnotic specters for early creatures that are forced to be taken care of.
Once again, excellent article.
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Kytep on 2007-04-11 18:20 MST by Revik on 2007-04-11 19:15 CDT
No problem. I've been looking it over, and I think the green seems kind of weak in here. Like, overall. Also, maybe add some hypnotic specters for early counters that are forced to be taken care of.
Once again, excellent article.
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Thanks again. As for the Green, sometimes I really, really need enchantment/artifact control, which mono-Black simply does not have. Also, as I mentioned (and just replied to you about), the Gaea's Blessings can be awesome; I believe they are a very key component in this deck that likes very long games.
As for Hippies, I'm not so sold on them. Vs. control, I can just wait out the longer games. Deaths and Extirpates are counter-proof anyway, and I don't need to draw out one of their counters with a Hippie. Vs. aggro, Hippies are expensive speed bumps. Vs. combo, Hippies can help somewhat, but they're still quite slow against decks that can kill on Turn 4.
Thanks for the constructive comments. Please, keep them coming!
Kytep
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Alandariel on 2007-04-11 18:45 MST Personally, I like this deck. However, I don't think it's viable in the current meta for but one simple reason: Land Destruction. It's in so many decks right now... almost any deck that runs red runs Boom/Bust... and although an Extirpate may stop that for the rest of the game, it may be too late to take it to the late game.
Otherwise, it's a very well-written article. Even if it WAS 56 Forests and 4 Chromatic Stars, if you wrote it like this, it would be worth reading.
The only thing you're missing is game examples, as previously stated.
--Alandariel
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Kytep on 2007-04-11 19:08 MST by Alandariel on 2007-04-11 19:45 CDT
Personally, I like this deck. However, I don't think it's viable in the current meta for but one simple reason: Land Destruction. It's in so many decks right now... almost any deck that runs red runs Boom/Bust... and although an Extirpate may stop that for the rest of the game, it may be too late to take it to the late game.
Otherwise, it's a very well-written article. Even if it WAS 56 Forests and 4 Chromatic Stars, if you wrote it like this, it would be worth reading.
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Thank you very much; you're too kind. :) As for land destruction, as I mentioned in the article, yes, that can be a problem. On the other hand, vs. Bust, it seems to me that for the most part, decks which run Bust tend to be control decks, which means they don't play all that many threats, which means I should be able to hold back on my lands, since I don't need super-large Tendrils like I do against aggro. For the most part, I figure I can probably just sit at 4 lands, which allows me to cast anything in my deck, then Extirpate and quickly rebuild after a Bust*. I don't know; I haven't yet faced a Bust being played against me, but that's what I'm thinking right now. I could be wrong, and would like to playtest the scenario.
* Notable exception: Gargadon. If they Bust and bring in a Gargadon in response, I'm pretty much screwed, as are most decks that don't pack a lot of counters.
Thanks again for the kind words, and for the constructive comments.
Kytep
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Cosmo on 2007-04-11 19:48 MST nice article, i enjoy reading it. you didnt ever consider the vore matchup :rolleyes:
i also think that you have a problem with the counterspells :P
congratulations!
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Alandariel on 2007-04-11 20:08 MST Cosmo, counters aren't too much of a problem for this deck as the majority of its threats are uncounterable/recoverable.
Kytep, the Boros and Gruul builds that I run as well as my BR Aggro deck all run Boom/Bust as a 4-of because of the immense popularity of control in the current meta. I might be wrong in doing that, but I don't believe I am.
I have a suggestion or two. Maybe it would be helpful to run Birds or Llanowar Elves to offset the high mana requirements of this deck. I realize you're not running much Green, but it would work. Actually, on second thought, have you thought about running Golgari Signets? They would help immensely versus LD by making it significantly easier to bounce back from an Armageddon. It also would enable all of your 4cc to be played on turn three. :) Just a thought.
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Ffancrzy on 2007-04-11 20:16 MST honestly...some of your matchup explinations are kinda...well lemmy quote you first...
Pickles (75%): A bit more difficult than Dralnu, but still quite favorable. In this one, Teferi doesn’t matter quite as much; it’s Brine Elemental that really must be Deathed/Extirpated. Once he’s gone, everything else is pretty easily controlled by the other Deaths and Imps. And since they tend to lay out several creatures, Damnation can get some good use, not to mention using Tendrils to kill a morph creature in response to a Teferi. Just watch out for Willbender.
ok...so basically you draw sudden death AND Extirpate or you lose...a good pickles player wont let u damn his board away so i did a little reasearch....
the chances of you getting 1 sudden death and 1 excirpate in a game is:
15% by turn 0 (opening hand)
18% by turn 1
22% by 2
27% by 3
31% by 4
35% by 5
39% by 6
43% by 7
47% by 8
51% by 9
55% by 10
59% by 11
62% by 12
even just sudden death
40,44,49,53,57,60,63,67,69,72 and on
now i will agree that sudden death helps...and that you CAN win w/ out it...but by the time you get one...they could...have the lock and be beating you to death w/ an elemental...
I dont know about you...but assuming a good pickles player can lock you by say turn 9...
51% =/= 75% no matter how you look at it...
also a good player will not throw a teferi down and tap out to risk one of their morphs dying (unless its lie a fathom seer)
ALL of that said...very well written...good anylization of weaknesses and i actually like the deck... good job :)
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Kytep on 2007-04-11 20:59 MST by Alandariel on 2007-04-11 21:08 CDT
Kytep, the Boros and Gruul builds that I run as well as my BR Aggro deck all run Boom/Bust as a 4-of because of the immense popularity of control in the current meta. I might be wrong in doing that, but I don't believe I am.
... have you thought about running Golgari Signets? They would help immensely versus LD by making it significantly easier to bounce back from an Armageddon. It also would enable all of your 4cc to be played on turn three. :) Just a thought.
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Hmmm...I haven't yet come across an aggro deck that runs Boom/Bust. I believe B/B would put such a deck more into the aggro/control or even control category. Still, it could be scary for The Borg to see an aggro deck running B/B as a geddon. On the other hand, by the time the aggro deck has 6 mana (likely on 22 lands, if like most aggro decks), The Borg will often have at least cleared aggro's board. Bust will still be very painful to recover from, of course, especially since the aggro deck can likely put the pressure on quickly again. I don't know; I'd have to see it in action.
As for the signet, I thought of running it, but it's hard to find room. I don't want to run fewer than 24 lands if I can help it, especially since I want large Tendrils, yet I need some Ghost Quarters to kill off opposing Factories and/or Tron lands. I'm not sure what control cards I could cut for signets. Do you have any suggestions?
Kytep
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SkaTista on 2007-04-11 21:10 MST nice article. \o/
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Egnirys on 2007-04-11 21:13 MST Great article, and this is a great deck. Unfortunately, as you've mentioned, it is a very bad matchup vs. some of the most popular decks in the metagame right now. I also believe there will be some problems vs. Gruul with Land Des. Perhaps when the meta changes we can see more of this deck. Personally I love MBC!
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Kytep on 2007-04-11 21:20 MST Response to Ffancrzy on 2007-04-11 21:16 CDT (too long to reasonably quote here)
Thanks for your analysis and help, Ffancrzy. First of all, just to clarify: My percentages are my estimations of *match* win percentages, not necessarily *game* win percentages (including sideboarding). So, I expect to win 2 out of 3 games (67%) against Pickles 75% of the time, (and conversely, I expect Pickles will beat me 2 out of 3 games 25% of the time). I don't necessarily expect to win 75% of all games against Pickles.
As for your analysis, I appreciate the work you have done to show the probabilities. However, my experience against Pickles to date (perhaps a half-dozen matches; not statistically significant, but enough to give me a feel for it) reveals some interesting things that I believe your analysis is missing:
1) I don't have to have Sudden Death *and* Extirpate to take out their first Brine Elemental, just Sudden Death (67% by Turn 7, according to your numbers). Then, while they're waiting for their second Elemental (only 3 of them remaining in their deck at most), I'm drawing for another Death *or* an Extirpate (7 remain in my deck). Having what I need 67% of the time by Turn 7, then needing a 7-of before they hit a 3-of seem like pretty good odds to me.
2) Pickles in general is pretty slow. They often give me several turns to get what I need. Even in your post, you say "lock by Turn 9". By Turn 9, according to your numbers, I'll have a Death 72% of the time (and I don't know if you factored in me occasionally slipping an Arena through).
3) All the while that I'm waiting to draw my first Death and Pickles to flip their first Elemental, I'm going crazy casting Edict, Damnation, Tendrils, Imp, etc. They usually can't counter it all, and I'll usually hit at least one or two of their morph creatures (sometimes I get lucky and hit an Elemental) by the time they'd flip one.
4) It's true that a good Pickles player usually won't tap out for Teferi with a Morph creature at risk against my potential Tendrils. However, that just means that they're giving me even MORE time to draw my Death, as they wait until they have enough lands in play to Teferi and counter (which is often difficult if I have 8 lands in play as well...can't stop Tendrils with a single Leak or Remand or even Snag w/one in the grave).
So, for now, I still stand by my estimation that The Borg can beat Pickles in 2 out of 3 games about 75% of the time. Perhaps my estimation will change as I play more matches against Pickles, but your analysis - while good and helpful - misses some key points which still tip the match in my favor, in my opinion.
Kytep
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Vodka_7up on 2007-04-11 21:41 MST Have you thought of the 4/4 dredge dude? Graveshell I believe it's called. Also wouldn't more Grip's in the SB be better then a Stupor or Specter?
On thing about tte Angelfire match up, basically they're the aggro, the entire goal is to whittle you down with Hasted angels, helix's, and so fourth, and then finish you with a demonfire. With your only life gain being tendrils, only one persecute, and your draw engine playing into there plan, I don't think it would be a great match up. Also they angel's only really need to get one hit in, by then they've done there job.
I dunno, I just find when I see % that's how I don't fully believe them.
All in all, great job on the article.
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Ffancrzy on 2007-04-11 22:57 MST @kytep
I realize my anaylisis doesn't take into account many of the points n your deck...but I was trying to make you realize that basing your matchup on haveing 1 card that trumps them isn't good... some other things you didnt take into account...
have you ever thought that maybe they have another elemental in hand...or if the morph up 1 shape shifter that they might have a second with which to copy the first... also take into account that you cant ignore their other threats like teferi and the shifter himself...pickles has a load of draw spells (and tudor for that matter)
all of that said i belive that you do have a good matchup against them...but i just thought that 75% was a little too steep...
like i said i thought you had a well written article and a good deck (although i would die of boredom playing it). very good job and I wish you lots of luck
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Kytep on 2007-04-12 00:22 MST @ Ffancrzy
Thanks again for the kind words. It is possible that I have overestimated The Borg's chances against Pickles, but I don't think so. While Sudden Death is certainly the best card to kill their Elemental, it is not the only one.
As for them having multiple Elementals and/or Shifters ready, I'm just as likely to have multiple Deaths and/or Extirpates ready. Think of it from the Pickles perspective: In order to win, they have to drop, morph, and hit me perhaps as many as three or four times with an Elemental before I draw a Sudden Death. And if I Death it, they have to get the second one before I draw another Death or Extirpate. And that's ignoring the Damnations, Edicts, Tendrils, and Imps.
Like I said, it's possible that 75% match wins is too generous; perhaps you believe it should be more like 65 or 70%. But I think we can agree that the Pickles matchup favors The Borg.
Kytep
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MistyFatDog on 2007-04-12 00:50 MST I love teh article, great detale. also maybe think about blackmail and maybe scrying sheets as x2 maybe.
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Shyft- on 2007-04-12 01:15 MST It's an interesting idea, but honestly, not too impressive. Maybe it would be a better idea to sideboard more discard to try and compete with Dragonstorm. Sometimes discard + extirpate can do something against them. Also, Dralnu decks are playing persecute main now, and can rune snag/remand phyrexian arena early game. Same thing for Flare. Remand into Persecute is game over. Dralnu has, generally, 2 Teferi, 2 Vampire, 1 Whelk, and 1-2 Urza's Factory to deal with for their kill methods. Snag Arena, eot Teferi, untap persecute. Game over? Even against your flawless anti-dralnu hand, a smart Dralnu player will not only win, but will win running away. Maybe do some actual playtesting against a player who has anything similar to a clue. Thanks for the terrible article.
The only favorable matchups I can see for this awful pile are Project X and Martyr.
By the way, I -did- just test this deck in 10 unsideboarded games against Dralnu.dec before posting this response. It posted a wonderful record of 1-9. Nice deck, jackass.
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Shyft- on 2007-04-12 01:26 MST Also, if anyone is wondering, Kytep has a 1538 Constructed Rating, is 9-16 in his last 25 T2 matches, and has won a total of 0 (ZERO) matches with this deck. Thanks for the absurd and unrealistic numbers. Awful clod.
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Quantumdemon on 2007-04-12 01:36 MST I would advise that people only write articles about decks from now on that are actually viable and competitive, the last few articles havent been close to that.
Seriously, dont write an article about a deck until you have actually made waves in the metagame with it. I dont want to be asshole or a flamer, but posting a decklist for a deck that has yet to prove to be competitive if anything, is just embarassing for everyone.
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ejv on 2007-04-12 01:41 MST hm
against UR tron sb out phyrexian ironfoot.. how do you win with 3 imps and 1 factory?? lol really optimistic... writing a goos article can't be everything; or sarcastic's rat 300card zoo would be the besto one for sure...
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Kytep on 2007-04-12 01:49 MST I'm curious: Is anyone else out there capable of piloting The Borg so poorly as to lose to Dralnu 1-9? I mean, without the intention of "proving" The Borg is bad before you even start and actually trying to understand the deck and win with it?
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Kytep on 2007-04-12 01:58 MST Yes, I have a 1538 Constructed rating. That's what happens when you don't worry about your rating and instead use League matches and Trials to test your new, original ideas against Tier 1 competition (9-16 with true rogue decks perhaps not sounding quite so bad now?). If you want to rip my deck apart, fine. But rip it on the deck's merits, not my M-L rating. What if I posted UR Tron? Would UR Tron suddenly suck because of my rating?
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Kytep on 2007-04-12 02:09 MST by Quantumdemon on 2007-04-12 02:36 CDT
I would advise that people only write articles about decks from now on that are actually viable and competitive, the last few articles havent been close to that.
Seriously, dont write an article about a deck until you have actually made waves in the metagame with it. I dont want to be asshole or a flamer, but posting a decklist for a deck that has yet to prove to be competitive if anything, is just embarassing for everyone.
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Your advice has some merit, but I still disagree. There isn't much article traffic on M-L, so it's not like these articles are doing any harm or preventing anything else from being posted. Further, "making waves in the metagame" requires a tremendous amount of time and effort, even with a great deck. People play Tier 1 decks every day and lose Round 1. Just look at how many Tier 1 decks *don't* make Top 4 in the trials.
I believe it is better to post such a deck sooner to stir some conversation, rather than waiting until hundreds of matches later when you finally win a M-L trial. Rather than waiting to "prove" my deck with a trial win (which may never come; I don't play in that many trials), I'd rather post my deck and let the discussion (jerks and all, and as you can see, there are plenty of jerks on m-l) fly. While that may mean that "lesser" or sub-optimal decks will be posted, it also helps fuel innovation more rapidly.
Kytep
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Shyft- on 2007-04-12 02:35 MST by Kytep on 2007-04-12 00:49 PDT
I'm curious: Is anyone else out there capable of piloting The Borg so poorly as to lose to Dralnu 1-9? I mean, without the intention of "proving" The Borg is bad before you even start and actually trying to understand the deck and win with it?
ROFL. I completely understand the deck. It does nothing until the opponent does something. So, when that something is playing Teferi during your end step, and then persecuting your black cards, you lose.
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Shyft- on 2007-04-12 02:46 MST Here's a rundown of a typical game :
Borg : Land
Dralnu : Land
Borg : Land
Dralnu : Land
Borg : Land, Arena (Rune Snagged or Remanded)
Dralnu : Land
Borg : Land, Ironfoot
Dralnu : Land
Borg : Attack. Pick nose. (Dralnu EOT teachings for Teferi)
Dralnu : Land
Borg : Attack. More nose picking (Dralnu EOT Sudden Death the PI)
Dralnu : Land
Borg : Um, any more boogies in here? (Dralnu EOT Teferi, Borg resp by Extirpating Teachings)
Dralnu : Persecute, Attack
Borg : Begin praying to topdeck one of the last 3 Sudden Deaths
Dralnu : Attack
Borg : Still praying. (Dralnu eot Think Twice ... Twice.)
Dralnu : Attack
Borg : Gaea's Blessing (Spell Snared, eot Skeletal Vampire, GG!)
Feel free to add about 6 extra turns of land, go if you like. Well, you could, except this deck only has 24 land with no karoos, compared to dralnu playing 25 with karoos, so it wins that war too. That was every, single, game. The deck has absolutely no options to try and combat that. The one game Borg won, it topdecked consecutively persecute (named black to kill vampire and at least give it a chance), sudden death, extirpate (rfg the other vampire).
The deck is awful.
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Quantumdemon on 2007-04-12 02:48 MST You seem to take criticism well, however, many of the "jerks" who are criticizing the decklist merely do so because it bothers them seeing a list that they will have to probably play against, that might get the occasional lucksack win from some n00b with a 1540 rating. Seriously, Shyft- is one of the top players in the league, if he says it isnt viable, I'd take his word for it.
Some things that are obvious about what's wrong with it:
#1 You lose to beatdown, damnation or not, I've played martyr, draw a couple of martyrs and a wrath and still lost to boros. Your deck just loses to early beats, a calciderm or fuge after damnation, and burn to your face, while you're sitting there with 2 arenas and a extirpate in your hand.
#2 You lose to a good control player, it's not hard to play around an extirpate especially when you're getting beatdown with stinkweed imps, and have all day to setup. Your deck has little card advantage aside from arena and damnation, it's all 1 for 1 trades unless you get a lucky extirpate.
#3 You have 8 win conditions, all of which take forever to win through beatdown, which makes your deck vulnerable to a non graveyard dependant combo deck like TSPS and D-storm. All D-storm needs to do is sculpt a hand, remand a persecute, and shoot you for 20, gg. Extirpate d-storm? ok, I have 5 dragons and you're at negative 6 life, thanks for playing!
#4 Posting this deck makes magic-league look bad. Sadly we live in a world where people care about what other people think, having this deck on the frontpage of the site makes the good players on this site concerned about the image of the site to the other good players. That's why when jank decks win tournaments on here people always reply "This is why good players dont play often on here anymore" Also why the negative reaction by a lot of players.
#5 You splash Green for no other reason than Krosan grip and Blessing, neither of which actually WIN you the game. Also, 3 cards of 4 duals seems kinda sketchy too.
Kytep, I'm not saying the deck cant win, because any deck can win, I've lost games to a rat's nest precon because the kid drew his one jitte in the deck and it annhilated my weenies before I could draw MY 4(!) copies left in my deck.
What I am saying is that it's not competitive. it's not going to do anything but help bad players to get lucky against good decks, and that's never good for magic or this league.
I remember when they had an article(a long while back) about a deck called "Hatertron" or something, where it was a monored deck designed specifically to beat ONLY(basically) UR tron, all it did was let bad players leach 20 rating points from me because some random decided to play it and I got paired first round of a trial. =\
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TaZi on 2007-04-12 04:40 MST Quantumdemon, you summarized, everything I wanted to post here. Thx for that.
Anyway I appreciate the work Kytep had with this article.
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dv8r on 2007-04-12 07:35 MST The arrogance of Quantumdemon and Shyft- is astounding considering the neither of them bothered to take the time to write an article of their own.
How the hell can having articles like this on the front page of our site actually EMBARASS you? I disagree. Personally, I think it makes us look good for promoting well written articles (you can not deny that this article is well written even if his logic is at times deeply flawed), and occasionally decent rogue decks.
I will admit that I'm not a neutral party. I'm still extremely bitter about the articles which I myself have posted about ACTUAL metagame shifting deck that post results IRL and on Magic-League, but still recieved similar response (it's one of the reasons I don't write here any more). The point is that most critics, of which Shyft- is certainly one (I don't know Quantumdemon that well), have absolutely no idea how to distinguish between what is a potentially good idea and what is not. Even if you are right, flaming someone in that way both makes you look like an ass and is also not constructive in any way or form.
In this instance I am still going to agree with Shyft- about the viability of the deck in its current form. The Borg is essentially a bad combo deck that requires a specific 2 card combo with no deck thining or tutoring, relying instead on reactive elements to win, this is suicide with no CA as you trade everything one for one so even a marginally better draw for your opp is disastrous. Furthermore, some cards don't trade 1 for 1 at all (e.g. extirpate) and drawing multiple extirpates in your opening hand (especially vs aggro) can be problematic. Compare this to the potential of a blue splash in this deck (for teachings to get you both "combo" parts and defend vs persecute).
Shyft- is of course wrong that "Dralnu decks run Persecute main now" (significantly less than 50% do) and I believe that Kytep IS completely right to defend his matchup against Dralnu (pre-board, post board you can't win Kytep, sorry). I believe that part of Shyft-'s anger is towards putting such favourable w/l ratios towards certain decks whilst ADMITTING that you haven't played them much. This is in my opinion the fatal flaw that undermines what is in fact a very well written article.
In sum: good article, good idea for a deck, poorly executed (and your matchup analyses are... exaggerated at best).
P.S.: To all the haters: If this articles like this "embarrasses" you so much, write better ones, and submit them. Show us what you can do.
P.P.S.: Am I the only one that laughed when I read this (and not in a good or supportive way): "I remember when they had an article(a long while back) about a deck called "Hatertron" or something, where it was a monored deck designed specifically to beat ONLY(basically) UR tron, all it did was let bad players leach 20 rating points from me because some random decided to play it and I got paired first round of a trial. =\"
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Kytep on 2007-04-12 10:34 MST @ Shyft-
Despite your unnecessarily immature and caustic tone (you'd think a player with an 1800+ ranking would have a bit more self-respect than having to rip on any other player, let alone one with a 1540- ranking), I do believe you have brought up a very good point about Persecute in a Dralnu deck and it is worth some discussion. I had not yet seen - let alone played against - Persecute in Dralnu, and yes, I can see that it would lower The Borg's match win percentage significantly - perhaps somewhere around 25%; significant advantage likely to Dralnu in any case.
But I don't think it would give Dralnu *quite* the 90% advantage that you seem to suggest (although I could of course be wrong). The Borg can still beat Dralnu with Persecute if:
1) It can beat down with Ironfoot before Dralnu draws and plays its Persecute. How many Persecutes does Dralnu run? I doubt 4; perhaps 1 or 2? And not much in the way to dig for it (Remand, Think Twice). Somehow I doubt Dralnu will pull a Turn 7 Persecute in the majority of games. Beating Dralnu with Ironfoot beatdown won't happen often, but it will likely give me a percentage point or two. Even in your example game (Turn 7 Persecute), you forgot to have my Ironfoot keep attacking (and also hold Teferi at bay). It only takes 7 Ironfoot hits to kill you.
2) Sudden Death isn't the only card I have that can kill Teferi. Over a third of The Borg can kill or at least block (Ironfoot) Teferi, so it normally won't take too long to top-deck a Teferi stopper. Admittedly, though, Dralnu will likely just counter most of what I draw, so I'm not saying this is a huge swing in The Borg's favor, but again, it may add a percent or so to the matchup.
3) Ironfoot is immune to Persecute, and it can hold Teferi at bay while I draw more removal/Extirpate.
4) I could very well have gotten an Imp through before you play Persecute, which buys me significant time to draw more creature control (not to mention, the Imp can dredge back to exhaust your counters).
5) I also could have gotten an Arena through before the Persecute, which, combined with that 1/3 of the deck being creature control, significantly increases my chances of drawing enough of that control to get past your counters.
6) In the earlier game, I could Nightmare Void or (post-side) Stupor your Persecute (or Teferi, for that matter), then Extirpate either one. Even if I just hit and Extirpate a counter or two, that makes it easier for me to get my topdecked creature control through post-Persecute.
Like I said, Dralnu without Persecute is easy for The Borg. Dralnu with Persecute will be very, very tough for The Borg.
Kytep
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Kytep on 2007-04-12 10:53 MST @ Quantumdemon
First of all, if you're a good player with a high ranking, you shouldn't have to worry much about "the occasional lucksack win from some n00b with a 1540 rating." You have to face that all the time anyway, regardless of whether an article like this was posted or not. And if the deck is that bad, is it really endangering your rating in any significant way??
You bring up some good topics for discussion though. I'll address them by the numbers you gave them:
# 1 Beatdown: I've played against a lot of beatdown, and my experience has shown that The Borg does very well against it; much better than I think you're giving it credit. Damnation's not the only source of Beatdown control. Ironfoot for example is HUGE. In fact, over a third of the main deck (23 cards) is creature control. And Tendrils allow me to rapidly gain what life I've lost right back, usually putting me well out of burn range.
#2 Control: Yes, it takes a long time to beat down with Imps (the usual win condition against control). But while the deck doesn't have a lot in terms of card advantage, it doesn't seem to need it. Extirpate is about card *quality* advantage over the long game, not card quantity advantage (where Arenas shine). And although Imp beatdown does take almost forever, the control deck does eventually have to deal with it, often with one of its down win conditions, which I can often just Sudden Death and Extirpate. The only things that scare me about an opposing control deck are massive land destruction (e.g., Wildfire, Bust) and "kill-you-now" cards (e.g., Demonfire). Anything else, they'll likely have to cast more than once to beat me, which is exceedingly difficult against Extirpate.
# 3 Takes Forever and D-Storm is a Bad Matchup: Yes, I mentioned these things in my original article. D-Storm is a bad matchup for a lot of decks.
# 4 Embarassement Over My Article (and others like it): I'm not sure how to put this delicately, but if you're bothered by what other people might think of your anonymous m-l screen name based on some "bad" articles on the site that weren't even written by you, well, I'm not going to finish the sentence. I think you get the idea.
# 5 Splash Green: First, Gaea's Blessing and Krosan Grip often help a lot. Grip may not directly win games, but it can help keep you from losing vs. a very troublesome art/enchant (otherwise, why would anyone run art/enchant removal?). Blessing keeps my deck full of whatever I need (not to mention can keep me from decking myself over a long game, so yes, sometimees it is a win condition). And remember, Blessing cantrips. This isn't Krosan Reclamation. It's like the front end of a Think Twice that puts 3 Tendrils back in your deck.
As for Sick-o-Tron, I placed second in a Trial with it, without even facing a single Tron deck (it slaughtered creature-based decks too). And the only other player whom I know tried it went 4-2 in a Master (there's your "metagame splash"). So, perhaps a little more respect for Sick-o-Tron, please? Thanks.
Kytep
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Kytep on 2007-04-12 11:15 MST @ dv8r
Thank you for the kind words and for the constructive criticism. I don't know why an 1800+ player and a 1700+ player would get so bent out of shape over a 1540- player posting a "n00b" deck.
To your constructive comments, I disagree that The Borg is a "combo" deck. I very much see it as a control deck (albeit highly reactive at that). And, yes, there's very little CA (notable exception: Arena, which can be HUGE, but admittedly only if it can get past opposing counters). But this deck is more about controlling card *quality* in the later game rather than card quantity advantage. Unless you cast a "kill me now" spell, you'll almost certainly have to cast two of whatever you need to kill me. And against a control deck (w/o Persecute), I'll likely have a hand full of creature control (including Sudden Death) and Extirpate waiting. It doesn't take much to wipe out all of the win conditions of most control decks this way. That's the basic idea of The Borg.
And true, Extirpates don't usually help much against aggro. Neither do Disenchants, Akromas, Gargardons, etc. There are usually cards in most every deck that are sub-optimal against aggro. But still, the deck has 23 cards that do a GREAT job in dealing with aggro, and my playtesting (so far) has shown that aggro isn't a bad matchup for The Borg.
As for the estimated win percentages, that's exactly what they are: Estimates. Some are based on playtesting, some are based on my theory. As I mentioned in a previous post, rather than spend hundreds of hours exhaustively playtesting every matchup so that my win percentages are more accurate (and they still wouldn't be believed anyway, even if they were "perfect"), I'd prefer to post the deck and get some discussion going. I've posted articles without estimated win percentages in the past, and people complained. So, I thought I'd put some in, just to get discussion going and perhaps please some of those people at the same time.
But, as you clearly know, you just can't win with some people posting an article on m-l, no matter what you do. :)
Kytep
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Vlada on 2007-04-12 11:23 MST Well you did put lot of effort on article, so GJ for that, but as i said b4, i dont know how good idea is that any random player/s write article for ML, my itention is not to offend you, but this whole article is waste of some1 effort, because deck is very very bad, and if you allready spend so much time on it, you shoud build it better aka make new versions of it, because this one fail, and if you are not good enought to come up with decent effort, pls dont write article next time, cuz i think articles are writen so people can learn something from then, and unfortunatly, from this one, people cant get any iformations about curent standard format.
I mean, its good you are trying, but imagine if everyone from ML write one useless article per week for ML, on what would it look?
So from now on i apeal to ML stuff to publish only articles with some value, and i belive they should make some unit that will evaluate articles, b4 they are published.
(you'd think a player with an 1800+ ranking would have a bit more self-respect than having to rip on any other player, let alone one with a 1540- ranking)
Just to know my rating is over 2000+ and as Shyft didnt have intention to offend you, i dont have too, we are just honest, and dont think its good idea for every1 to be able to write article)
So much for now, i hope you will continue to work on your deck, and improve him.
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Kytep on 2007-04-12 11:36 MST @ Vlada
Thanks for your constructive comments and criticism. It may well be that this deck is poor, and perhaps ML editors should be more restrictive in what they choose to post. I suspect that they don't restrict as much because ML articles at best come in as a slow drip. I too am wondering why the people who feel "embarrassed" over articles like this don't write their own, superior articles to make ML (and apparently them) look better. I'd bet that if the ML editors had to choose between my article and a good one written by the likes of Shyft- or Quantumdemon, they'd choose the latter. But apparently, they're not getting such articles from them. So it's articles like mine, or nothing. It would seem that they deemed mine better than nothing (yay! ;)
I agree that you didn't intend to offend me, and I take no offense from you; rather, thank you for your professional and honest comments. Shyft-, on the other hand, does seem to intend offense, as he takes to calling me a "jackass" and an "awful clod".
Now THAT should be the type of thing that embarrasses people here, not otherwise good articles about supposedly bad decks.
Kytep
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dv8r on 2007-04-12 12:39 MST Kytep: you ignore the most important point directed towards you in my post. MYSTICAL TEACHINGS. Discuss. ;)
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Revik on 2007-04-12 13:10 MST Erm, one other thing. Have you considered phyrexian totem instead of green's presence in the deck? Green is just bad in this deck, and Totem fuctions as accel and a win condition. Just a thought.
Still dont think the deck is very good though
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Eldar on 2007-04-12 13:25 MST I like the article but as many others have said I don't like green in the deck. I can see the usefulness of blessing. I think that you might be better of splashing in blue instead of green. It gives you access to remand and other terrific blue cards and also an option that I have recently found to give you at least a 70% chance against dragonstorm/tsps. I have been playing a three color vore build that completely wrecks combo decks through tempo, cantrips, and a certain card that is thought to be crap named glimpse the unthinkable. To win against dragonstorm all you have to do is hit a hellkite with it and then simply extirpate it. The only downsides of this are you could hit 3 rite of flame and they have one in hand to cast double hunted dragon and then they own you or something dumb like that. So far in the last few FNMs I have played this deck I am undeafeated matchwise only losing one game to dragonstorm because he went off turn 2. Not much I can do about that. So gamewise I am 8-1 in the last 4 matches 2 vs. dstorm and 2 vs tsps. Tsps is just about as good. You mill an ignite extirpate it and hope to have a damnation for empty. If you do you can stall all day long and just simply win the game and you don't have to even worry about the mono red versions running MD blood moon because you are a mono colored deck whereas if they go t2 rite blood moon my vore deck has problems. As I have already said great article I think in order to be a decent rogue deck it needs more testing and perhaps the addition/subtraction of colors that you are running at the moment. To be perfectly honest do you even need green in this deck it seems that you use it rarely to grip your own arena or cast blessing. But isn't your point here to dredge blessing anyway just some thoughts.
My other main suggestion is to try twisted abomination in here as he serves the tripurpose of getting you an overgrown tomb, thinning your deck of land, and recurring with blessing to beat face as a regenerating win condition.
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Vedrfolner on 2007-04-12 14:47 MST I think Kytep has forgotten that other players play extirpates and creature kill as well, let alone answers to Factory. In sum, removing this deck's win conditions should be absolutely no problem for other control decks, since he does not play counter. I cannot imagine how long a game would last if he presumes that he would easily draw 6-7 extirpates. 2-3 hours?
In sum: If MBC is going to be viable, it needs lots of discard, lots of creature removal and lots of draw, and mana acceleration.... and most importantly, it needs some powerful win conditions that puts pressure on the opponent. Plagued Sliver, Phyrexian Totem, Skeletal Vampire, Stronghold Overseer, Consume Spirit. They need to be in! Otherwise the deck does nothing, and the hard-fought board and card advantage becomes pointless. Kytep spends 1/3 of the cards in his deck (or more) in order to gain control - and then his finishers are no faster than those he could play turn 2. This will not do.
Many posters on this site should listen to what Dv8r says; Verbal abuse and flaming are breaking down m-l.
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Notgnawy on 2007-04-12 15:44 MST what happens if i dredge a blessing in my graveyard? my guess is that you lose the dredge card.
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LegendofMatt on 2007-04-12 18:18 MST I feel that you've written a very good article, the deck i feel is very suboptimal but it's your deck and you defended your choices well.
I do have a problem with some of your statistics, i don't feel that they're realistic in the slightest. Just because you have a card that can hurt a deck doesn't mean that you'll beat it, i feel that you just became lazy at that point and really wanted to boost your deck to more than what it is.
I think the key to MBC, be it Borg or something else is that you have the power to hit a reset button with Mindslicer + Damnation. Then you can capitalize better than your opponent with cards like Arena, Haakon + Knights, and The Totem. I agree with other people who say you're more focused on making a game last long than actually winning it, but again nice article.
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kcaccidental on 2007-04-12 19:28 MST Kudos to Kytep for handling unconstructive criticism with dignity. Shyft, grow up or quit posting.
Very well-written article. Like many other people, I'm not a fan of the green in this deck, but it's not like I've playtested with it or anything.
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sc4rs on 2007-04-12 20:02 MST There are a few problems that I can see with this deck, and they are as follows:
1: You are unable to deal with an enchantment win condition like Sacred Mesa before/after sideboarding except for the 1xKrosan Grip in the maindeck. As you said, you have no deckthinning aside from Phyrexian Arena, which means most of the time you will end up losing to it while waiting for an answer.
2: Untargetable win conditions (like Solifuge and Calciderm) also seem to pose problems for you post-Damnation, for the same reason (not enough digging for another Damnation).
3: There are plenty of decks that will just Extirpate you after you cast your first Extirpate, thereby protecting the rest of their win conditions, and if they have removal resistant win conditions (as most win conditions are, by definition), then you will have a hard time dealing with them unless, again, you topdeck Damnnation.
4: 1 Nightmare Void and 1 Persecute are nowhere near enough against Dragonstorm. Jester's Scepter is also a poor solution to this deficiency. Why aren't you playing the best answer to Dragonstorm in black (Shadow of Doubt)?
5: Stinkweed Imp is great at getting cards into your graveyard. I just don't see the purpose of doing so. Why are you going to be "dredging like crazy"? The Gaea's Blessings will shuffle everything back into your deck, which granted will allow you to replay cards and never lose by decking, but last I checked most decks don't stall that long anyway.
6: Persecute against your essentially mono colored deck is a much, much bigger problem than you refer to. Beach House, random MBC decks, whatever Dralnu plays Persecute, and almost certainly any black deck post-sideboard is going to be packing them, and likely with their own Extirpates to boot. Your deck also only runs 8 win conditions, and they're only two cards. If they Extirpate both your Stinkweeds and your Ironfoots, then you have no way to win except milling them to death or relying on Urza's Factory beats.
7: Speaking of Urza's Factory beats, lands that produce creatures (Vitu-Ghazi and Factory) will own your deck. You have no way to stop control decks from sitting back and pumping out 2/2s until you die.
Though you explain your deck thoroughly, the deck is deficient enough that I believe that it is not competitive in the environment. This tends to be a problem, considering the entire point of writing an article about a deck *should* be that it's competitive against the current format.
I like the idea of a pseudo-MBC deck (I was a huge fan of MBC back in Odyssey block when we had all the Torment cards to play around with) but at the same time, playability is important. I'd consider testing. A lot. And when you think you've tested enough, test some more. Once you do that, you'll get a much better feel for what works and what doesn't. Unfortunately, the lack of testing and refinement shows, and that's what people like Shyft and QuantumDemon are upset about. Though it is true that many people would still flame a very good deck, that's no excuse for undertesting an idea and presenting match percentages based on no actual testing whatsoever. There is NOTHING better for deck development than playtesting over and over and over.
The problems I mentioned can be dealt with. You need to find ways to deal with them (and also U/R Tron. If it's dominant, you really, really kinda want to be able to beat it.) If you do more testing, I wouldn't be surprised if a deck like this could become competitive. This deck is just too unrefined to be good.
Don't give up because people flame (it seems clear to me that you won't, which is good) and don't toss this deck idea out. At the same time, you don't want to get too attached to it. Test, throw out cards, try new things, switch things around. It's the only way to make decks better. :)
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Kytep on 2007-04-12 20:04 MST @ dv8r
Your suggestion of including Mystical Teachings is an interesting one. Being able to Teach for a Sudden Death in response to a Teferi (and then flashback Teachings for an Extirpate) is certainly tempting. Other interesting potential possibilities with Teachings include Darkblast, Pongify (vs. things like Hellkite, White Akroma, Spectral Force, etc.), Shadow of Doubt (vs. D-Storm), Cancel (vs. anything in an emergency), Tendrils, and even Teferi. Yes, I can see that a B/U toolbox concept with Teachings could work. In fact, that's essentially what Dralnu is, and I would imagine the deck would naturally evolve into Dralnu if this concept is pursued much further.
My only problem would then be, since I doubt the deck could splash two colors (Green and Blue), Green would probably have to leave, and then what do I do about artifacts or enchantments? Unless I'm running a lot of discard or counters, Repeal won't cut it. Perhaps I'm overestimating the threat of arts/enchants in this environment. I might reconsider.
Thanks for the constructive suggestion (and for pointing it out again; I missed it :), as well as your positive attitude.
Kytep
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Kytep on 2007-04-13 00:57 MST @ sc4rs
Thank you very much for your constructive comments. My answers to them are as follows (using your numbering):
1: Many good decks in the environment cannot deal with artifacts or enchantments; there seem to be few truly troublesome arts or enchants used in the environment right now. At least with one Krosan Grip, I can sometimes deal with what trouble I do face. But with so few potential problems out there, I'm considering actually taking the Grip out anyway.
2: I believe you're forgetting about Edicts and Imps. Post-Damnation, I still have 3 more Damnations, 4 Edicts, and 3 Imps in the deck (10 cards) to deal with Solifuge, Calciderm, et al. And decks that run those kinds of creatures usually won't have the means to stop or destroy the Arena I may have to find those cards faster.
3: As I mentioned in my original article, opposing Extirpates are admittedly a problem. However, A) It is possible to play around them, especially with Nightmare Void or Stupor (get their Extirpate in the grave, then Extirpate it); B) If their win conditions are creature-based, I may not need to Extirpate their conditions, just kill them as they come. I'm not aware of any creatures in the T2 environment right now that can survive Damnation, Edict, Tendrils, Sudden Death, and Imp. At least one of these will kill whatever creature the opposing deck has.
4: I agree that 1 Nightmare Void and 1 Persecute are nowhere near sufficient to beat D-Storm. I'll almost auto-lose to D-Storm in Game 1 (and as I mentioned in the original article, I only expect to win maybe 25% of matches against D-Storm; it's a bad matchup for Borg). I use Scepter in the side rather than Shadow of Doubt because of an even worse matchup: Tron.
5: The purpose of Imp is not to get cards into my graveyard; rather, they're creature control and a win condition that can keep coming back. The Blessings help keep me from decking myself against a control deck that can keep killing my Imps, requiring me to dredge them several times in a game.
6: I agree Persecute is bad news for me, especially in a deck like Dralnu (although they can't Persecute my Ironfoots, as you seem to suggest). I even mention it as one of the top problemtic cards in my original article. However, as I mentioned, they can't get the Ironfoots, and I can just dredge the Imps back (unless they have an Extirpate all ready), and as you mentioned, even if they get rid of all my creatures, I still have Factory and Blessings that can still win.
7: No way to stop creature-producing lands? Perhaps you missed that I have 3 Ghost Quarters main, for exactly that reason.
I probably haven't tested the deck as much as many people here think I should, but I have tested it in several dozen matches, so this is not pure theory on my part. In my opinion, the problem with continuing with testing too much is that one eventually hits a wall and their incremental improvements become rather small. In my opinion, it's better to do some basic testing, establish that the deck at least can win against a decent variety of other decks, and get a general feel for its strengths and weaknesses. After that, I believe one can accelerate the improvement process much more efficiently by doing what I have done here: post an article and get feedback from others (although some of course will be caustic and mean, some will be just plain useless, but hopefully some will be useful and give me new ideas).
And thanks for the words of encouragement too. The flamers aren't getting me down; if anything, they're just making me feel a bit sorry for them. It's gotta suck to have such low self-esteem that you feel the need to flame others, especially anonymously and for no apparent reason. I don't want to guess anyone's age here, but I've gotten the impression that there are a lot of teenagers around here. Perhaps that's part of the problem. It's been a while since I've been a teenager, so I have a harder time relating to it nowadays.
Kytep
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Ro on 2007-04-13 04:24 MST hahaha
too bad humor articles don't count for 'article of the month'.
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DS_McWerp on 2007-04-13 12:28 MST Ro steals ma burns.
Edit: As for te actual article...good article, bad testing, and honestly, probably not a very good deck. Black wants 4 nightmare voids me thinks, but even that is probably not enuf vs dralnu and is probably too slow vs dstorm. Just my thoughts. MBC isn't quite back to tier 2 status yet. I do think mba might have a shot once it gets the awesomeness that is xiylid jailer, but maybe thats just my love for that card biasing my opinion.
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coolcreep on 2007-04-13 14:33 MST wtfno.
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Quantumdemon on 2007-04-13 19:58 MST I'm going to Grant dv8r and Kytep their wish, I'm going to write another article =\
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Kytep on 2007-04-14 00:20 MST @ Quantumdemon
Excellent! Very glad to hear it (seriously)! I can't wait to read it. Can you give us any hint as to what it might be about?
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BloodyAngel on 2007-04-14 03:02 MST <3 penis to all the bad posters
gj kytep, i tryed ur deck with a friend in last fnm, switching green for blue. we added remands, academy ruins, triskelavus and repeal, also coldsteel heart, scrying sheets and rimefeather owl as an additional win condition, my friend took second place. Against control decks we sideboarded shadowmage infiltraitor and stupor. thanks to hearts we could cast 4cc spells on 3rd turn, have a lot of resources thanks to academy ruins and lot of card advantage thanks to sheets. So please dont mind this crappy constipated bad critics. I dont have a nice score here but in Magic online and im a pro player. What u r doing is right, trying to create a new archetype, different from what these noobs do everyday as playing with netdecked tier one decks, so keep up the good work! and as i said <3 to all the bad posters
P.S. if u want my list i can email it to u anytime
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Kytep on 2007-04-14 15:18 MST @ BloodyAngel
Thank you for the encouraging words, and I'm very glad to hear you've had some success with the deck (if it's still recognizeable...sounds like you've made quite a few changes! :).
As you can see, I've received a lot of suggestions here that I should replace Green with Blue, and I must admit, it's getting tempting. I'm curious as to your reasoning behind your changes, especially Remand (doesn't get anything to the grave, and it strikes me as odd if these are your only 4 counters), Trisk, and Ruins (basically just to get back Trisk?).
Also - what did you take out (other than Blessings and Grips, of course)?
Kytep
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Avata on 2007-04-14 15:29 MST To be honest, I expected this deck to be a huge pile. I tested it though, and it's really not. It smashes aggro as expected and the dredge, blessings, and anti-control board helps against the rest of the field.
One thing I did notice though - against aggro, I found that the deck seemed a little slow, low on two drops, and I always wished I could hit four mana sooner.
I also found that sometimes I was lacking a green mana, but I didn't want to take out swamps.
Solution: Golgari Signet. Looking at it now, I can't believe it's not in the original list.
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Kytep on 2007-04-14 16:41 MST @ Avanta
Thank you for testing despite your initial negative reaction, and I'm very glad to hear you're having success with it. I'm curious: What did you take out for the Signets?
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Avata on 2007-04-14 19:41 MST I took out:
Persecute
Nightmare Void
As one ofs, they weren't consistent enough to do any real damage. Persecute really needs to find a home in the early game, so having just one didn't really work. If I wanted to keep these in the main deck, I'd find a way to work in Dimir House Guards.
1x Stinkweed Imp
I really wish I didn't have to make this cut, but something had to go, and with Sudden Death, Phyrexian Arena, Imp, and Ironfoot all at the three slot, along with the signets making the three slot a potentially less crucial place to fill, well, something had to go.
1x Extirpate
I really hated the times I found more than one of these in my opening hand. It's useful - even against aggro - but four was just too many for my taste.
I also made some tweaks to the sideboard, although these aren't tested too throughly:
Out: 4 defense grid
Seems like most decks either aren't too instant dependent OR they're running tron. If I break up the tron, they struggle with huge mana hellkites and spell bursts in their hand, and if I can't, they power through the grid anyway.
In:
2 Nightmare Void
This thing *is* a house against control, and after taking the one out of the main deck, I had to make room somewhere in the sideboard.
1 Krosan Grip
No deck really comes to mind specifically, but there have been a lot of times I've been pleasantly surprised to draw the one main deck grip, so I wanted another in the sideboard for those matchups.
1 Gaea's Blessing
Man is this thing useful in the long game against control, but if I use the first one, I found myself holding the second knowing that if they countered it, my recursion was toast. The third is in there to take that pressure off, and also keep the dredge recursion going if you draw both.
by
dsad on 2007-04-14 22:09 MST ... your deck's worst matchups are the best decks in the format.. i would suggest not playing this deck. ;\
by
BloodyAngel on 2007-04-15 02:00 MST kytep
here's the list im testing:
4 extirpate 11 snow-covered swamp
4 phyrexian ironfoot 4 watery grave
4 phyrexian arena 3 scrying sheets
4 tendrils of corruption 2 snow-covered island
4 damnation 1 urza's factory
4 coldsteel heart 1 academy ruins
4 remand 1 ghost quarter
2 triskelavus 1 urborg, tomb of Y.
2 rimefeather owl
2 repeal
2 persecute
sideboard:
3 shadowmage infiltrator
4 stupor
4 bottle gnomes
2 ghost quarter
2 sudden death
